20 Next Level Leadership

Ever been promoted into leadership and felt like you had no idea what you were doing? You’re not alone. For new and “new-ish” managers, leadership can feel overwhelming—imposter syndrome creeps in, communication breaks down, and you’re left wondering if you’re really cut out for the role. In this episode of Joyfully Unstoppable, I sit down with Elissa Zylbershlag, founder and CEO of WorkWise Labs, to talk about how to move through those doubts, grow from mistakes, and build the confidence you need to lead with clarity and authenticity.

Elissa has spent over 20 years helping managers build confidence, strengthen communication, and create cohesive, thriving teams. Through her Next Level Leadership program, she equips new and emerging managers with the tools they need to step into leadership without fear or overwhelm.

In this conversation, we dive into:
✨ Why mistakes, struggles, and disappointments are your greatest teachers as a leader
✨ How to reframe feedback (and what to say when you’re not ready to respond)
✨ The difference between consulting and true coaching—and why it matters
✨ Practical ways to communicate authentically while meeting your team where they are
✨ The power of self-awareness and the “mirror and portrait” metaphor that every leader needs to hear

Whether you’re stepping into leadership for the first time or looking to grow into your next level with confidence, this episode will leave you inspired and equipped to lead in a way that feels true to you.

Connect with Elissa Zylbershlag & WorkWise Labs:
Work Wise Labs’ Next-Level Leadership Program is designed for all new and “newish” managers across all industries. This comprehensive six-month program blends learning, self-reflection, and community to support leaders in their growth journey. Learn more at https://www.workwiselabs.com/nextlevel-leadership
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elissazylbershlag/
📸 Instagram: @workwiselabs  
👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elissa.zylbershlag/

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Transcript

Becky Hamm: 0:05

Welcome to Joyfully Unstoppable, the podcast for women who are ready to lead boldly, live lightly, and reclaim their joy. Whether you're leading a team, a classroom, a boardroom, or your own big, beautiful life, I am so glad you found us. I'm your host, Becky Ham leadership coach, speaker and founder of Women Lead Well. After years of high level leadership, I discovered that success doesn't have to come at the cost of your peace, your values, or your wellbeing. Each week we'll explore what it means to lead joyfully, sustainably, and authentically. Even in a world that tells you to hustle harder and prove your worth, you carry a lot. Let's help it feel lighter. Y'all today, I am so excited to welcome my very first guest on the Joyfully Unstoppable podcast, Alissa Zylbershlag, founder and CEO of Workwise Labs, a company dedicated to helping managers feel more confident in the workplace, a natural educator, facilitator, and relationship builder. Alissa has spent over 20 years. Providing professional development and leadership support across industries, including leadership roles within the Anti-Defamation League, the New Jersey State Bar Foundation, and the New Jersey division on civil rights. Alissa is often called upon to provide professional coaching for managers when they lack confidence and consult with organizations when they need a fresh perspective, when teams face challenges, or when new departments are being built from the ground up. She has a proven track record of developing successful programs and fostering strong, cohesive teams. Alissa, welcome to the Joyfully Unstoppable Podcast. Thanks, Becky. I am so happy to be here. It is awesome to have you here. So Alissa, you're the founder and CEO of Workwise Labs, and you've built the next level leadership program specifically for new and new-ish managers. Can you share your journey with our listeners? What led you to create this program and what do you most want leaders to gain from it?

Elissa Zylbershlag: 2:17

I created the program as part of Workwise Labs because. There's not a lot out there that really focuses on new and new-ish leaders. There are a lot of leadership programs, but when we think about those moments of getting that first job where you're in a managerial role, and I don't know if you've had that experience, but what happens a lot is. Imposter syndrome and fear and worry, and it's like people don't understand what it really means to be a leader. So my first leadership role was in 2005, and as I was thinking back to it for this in, in preparation for this podcast, um, I was just thinking about all of the things that have happened to me over the years. Um. And I've learned so many lessons and each lesson that I learned was because I made a mistake or because I had some huge struggle, or because I was super disappointed about something. And in and of itself, that is a lesson, right? That is like the first lesson that. Any new or new-ish leader or person really should, should know is that mistakes, struggles, disappointments, they are there to teach us. Mm-hmm. And those are the moments when everything's going great and everyone's like happy. You know, these moments are wonderful, but that's not where you're learning, that's not where you're growing. That's where you're kind of just gliding along and enjoying the fruits of your labor. So I really just think that those moments of disappointment and mistakes and struggles, that's where you really learn. And so that's why I created the Next Level Leadership program because this is a program where what you get to kind of delve into all of those things.

Becky Hamm: 4:31

Yeah. And Alissa, I think this is so important. You know, I was thinking back on my first probably formal leadership role was as chair of the faculty council at my university. Um, and then the, probably the mo the formal, um, leadership role where I was a, a. Actual supervisor. Where I managed people was when I became Dean, uh, at the college and no training to chair the faculty council, even though I was herding the cats and, and leading, uh, an agenda, setting a vision, leading an agenda, all the things that you do as a leader. With peers, which is a particularly challenging part of leadership because there is no formal authority structure. I just had a chair and I had a particular position I was elected to, but I had no, um, actual, uh, influence over the members. They were gonna do what they were gonna do. And so I learned a ton through failure. Absolutely. Um, and some anxiety on my part'cause. Because you go to that role, wanting to do a good job and, and wanting to, to help fellow faculty and, and the university as a whole. And then when I transitioned to become dean. I had my mandatory supervisor training. And so how do you do time cards and how, what is the process if somebody isn't performing? How do you document that from an HR perspective? So the HR side of the house can take formal disciplinary actions against people who, who aren't meeting standard, but that's not real. That's a, that's a tiny little sliver of what actual leadership is. That isn't, how do you have, um, in my instance. Highly experienced professionals. How do you hold them accountable in a way that's not condescending, that is collaborative, that builds the team and then moves the team forward? And again, from my specific experience, how then do you institute some fundamental change within that? Organization within my part of the organization because we had to change because we had grown kind of calcified.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 6:33

Yeah.

Becky Hamm: 6:33

And so leadership is far more complex than the mandatory training that new leaders might get when they come into a role, if they get any training at all. Right.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 6:44

Well, that's the thing. And you, you mentioned two things that I want to touch on Becky. The first is this anxiety that you felt, um. You know, my daughter struggles from anxiety. She's 18 and she is a go-getter. I mean, this girl, she will do so much. I'm so excited to see what she's going to do and be in the world, and she's had this anxiety her whole life and I always wanted to try to like fix it. And one of the things that I realized as a mom. And then comes into my professional life is that anxiety, you know, within reason, anxiety can really be your friend. It pushes you to do things. It, it has pushed my daughter, I've watched it. She always gets her schoolwork done like well in advance, you know, and that's the anxiety and. Even though it's not healthy for you, it's not good, right? But the, there are some benefits to having a little bit of anxiety because it keeps you on track, it pushes you forward, and you can use it to your, to your advantage. So of course, anxiety within reason and moderation. Um, everything in moderation, including moderation and. It's, you know, so anxiety. That's the first thing I wanted to say. And then the second thing, when you were talking about. You know, being a leader and having to deal with people, I mean, that's, that's the hard part of leadership, right? You can Google, you know, you can google like strategy, you know how to have a strategic planning session. You can ask Chad GPT for a whole list of everything, you know, like on paper what you need to do. That's all out there. But what, what leadership really comes down to is people and dealing with the different personalities. And you know, I'm gonna say something that's a little bit controversial, but that's okay because I really do believe it. It's like when, when you're, and, and I want all new leaders to know this, when. You are struggling to manage a person. It's usually you, the leader, that's the problem.

Becky Hamm: 9:23

Mm-hmm.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 9:26

You are just not doing something right. Most likely it's communication. Effective communication is not just saying the words. Effective communication is making sure that you're saying the words so that they are being heard by that person. And in order to know how that person needs to hear those words, you need to have a relationship with them because you need to know what they need. And you then need to make modifications in yourself as the leader to make sure that you're meeting that person where they are. And I think a lot of leaders think it's about them. This is my team, so this is gonna be run the way I want it to be run. And there are a lot of choices and a lot of decisions that you make as a leader. And those are, you know, the direction and, and you are building the path for the team. But. Changing yourself as the leader to meet the needs of your team and the people's needs because they're all humans. That's what's really, really key that a lot of people miss. And in a way, it's kind of freeing, you know, to know that you don't have to change another person, because the truth is you can't really, you can only change yourself. So knowing that. Changing yourself can help your team. That's actually kind of freeing, knowing that it's you. That's the problem. It's you that can make the change. And you know, it requires vulnerability. It requires self-awareness, it requires humility to do that kind of work. And it's hard, but that's, that is like. The key, I think, and that's something I really want new leaders to know.

Becky Hamm: 11:32

Yeah. And I think this, this point about communication and how oftentimes we think we're better communicators than we are, this is true. I would say this is true not only of new leaders, I think it's equally true of experienced leaders. Uh, but it, it was definitely a growth. Curve for me when I was new to leadership that I had this assumption that if I communicated it, then it was received and I didn't have to continuously communicate the priorities or the timelines or the why, why are we doing what we're doing? Um, and so I got pretty frustrated the first year or two. Uh, I was in informal and formal leadership role because it just took me a while to figure out. Nobody is trying to blow me off. That's not who these, that's not who my, my team is amazing. They just have their own list of priorities, some of which are related to their role in the organization and some of which just related to the lives that they are leading. That frankly, more the higher priorities are their personal priorities, and then the work priorities or the work priorities, I have to be able to, to connect with them. Both in a, a relational way, but also with the cadence so that I am communicating what matters organizationally, so that they wanna hear it. Two, that it actually sinks in, and then three, that they remember it. Because I thought if I just said it, they would remember and no, they do. Of course not. I didn't. Right? And then I would think back to the number of times my boss would tell me something. I'd be like, oh yeah, oops, they said that. And then I would have to catch up to where they are.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 13:15

Right.

Becky Hamm: 13:15

So this point of communication I think is so important. Key for leaders or the, the women that I work with is doing it in a way that is authentic to who you are. Mm-hmm. And so, yes, we all grow, we all change. We might, you say that we, the leader is the problem maybe, but it is still, we have to find a way that we have that relationship. That is true to who we are and that we don't sell ourselves out and just twist ourselves into a pretzel because we have to communicate differently to this person and then differently to that person, and then do another thing over here, because then we're jumping to meet their bar, which is fine to do in life, but, but we also, we set our bar. Right. We determine, yes,

Elissa Zylbershlag: 13:57

of course we have to have our boundaries, we have to have our limits, we have to have the things that are true to us. And authentic leadership is a very big part of the work that I do and the work that I try, that I bring to my clients. Um, and you know, being confident is about being authentic because when you are not being true to who you are, you know. How can you be confident? Right. It makes me think, actually, you know, it's like speaking truth to power. I, I had a, a boss, um. Who came in, who was new in the organization, and I had been there for many years. And you know, you, you develop relationships, you be, you have friendships. And I had a, um, a colleague, a peer who was running another department and she had a problematic employee. And we, we would talk about it a lot and what she could change to, how she could change mm-hmm. To help this employee. And there were a lot of issues and, um. He came into me one of his first days, uh, there, and he was like, you know, I have a really great idea we should move this employee to, I was thinking to move this employee into, into your department, and I knew all the things that had gone on, right? And I, and I had to make a decision in that moment, like, how, how was I gonna deal with this? Because he's coming in, in this new envi, he has no idea. And I took a risk. I was authentic with him and I said, listen, we all have a lot of relationships that have been built over the years, and I know about this employee and I know the struggles that this employee has, and I don't think that this employee would be right for my department because X, Y, Z, um, and. I kind of called him out on what he was doing and that was very authentic to me, but in a kind way I needed to let, I needed to put up my boundaries, right, and say like, you gotta be real with me. I'm gonna be real with you. And it actually ended up being a really great relationship and. The ones, the, the great relationships that I've had with my bosses have been the ones where I have spoken truth to power. I have been vulnerable. I have been the one that said like. Hey. Oh, that job in 2005, that first job, that boss, he screamed at me in a public meeting. Hmm. And afterwards I went and I was there like two weeks. Like I didn't know, you know, and I went in afterwards and I said, I, I was wrong and I didn't have the right information, or I don't even know what it was. And I said to him, but, or, and. Don't yell at me like that in front of everybody. That was incredibly embarrassing for me. And I was vulnerable and I was direct. I ended up having the best relationship with him, you know, and it's like these, these bosses and, and being a boss, you wanna your team to be able to come to you and to say those things, but you also have to create that environment, right.

Becky Hamm: 17:28

Yeah, that's right. When you are the one in charge, you have to be safe for them to come and unvarnished and just tell you professionally, but tell you what's going on. Yeah.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 17:40

Yeah. And one of the things that I tell, uh, clients of mine when they're receiving feedback is to not respond right away to just say, thank you for telling me. I, I wanna process and I wanna think about it. And I'll get back to you.

Becky Hamm: 17:55

Yeah, that's great. Thank

Elissa Zylbershlag: 17:55

you. But thank you for telling me, it kind of takes the pressure off. Having to come up with some amazing response right away.

Becky Hamm: 18:05

Right. Well, and when you get that feedback, particularly if it's not the glowing feedback we all wanna get from our bosses, okay. The fee you're gonna feel some kind of way when you're hearing it, and so not being in a position where you feel the need to then respond. Because you don't wanna sound defensive and you certainly don't wanna get emotional if you can avoid it. And so I think that's a great tip to just, I'm gonna receive it now. I'll come back. Yeah. And, and we can talk about next steps.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 18:31

And it's any, it's any, um, feedback. So whether you're getting it from your boss, whether you're getting it from one of the people on your team and you're the boss, whether you're getting it from a colleague who's giving you some sort of a, some sort of feedback. You know, any feedback that we get, it can be a little bit jarring. Mm-hmm. Um, when, when we receive that feedback, it's, and that's the moment, right? That's that moment that I was talking about before. It's like, pause. Take it in, listen to it, and what are you gonna do with it? What are you gonna do with that information?

Becky Hamm: 19:14

That's right. Yeah.'cause there's always an opportunity there, even if it doesn't come, even if it's a, a, a poorly framed feedback, which can happen. People give you feedback and the, the message is good, but the way the message was delivered. Hit you sideways, right?

Elissa Zylbershlag: 19:29

Yes.

Becky Hamm: 19:30

So giving yourself space to get down to the kernel of the opportunity for growth.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 19:34

Yeah. And even if you disagree with it, there I have, um, one of my most popular, I also do team building workshops and one of my most popular team building workshop is, uh, is on self-awareness and the way that we think about self-awareness. Tasha Uric, who is a researcher on self-awareness, she's also an author. She wrote a book called Insight and um, she defines self-awareness as the ability to see ourselves clearly, to understand who we are, how others see us, and how we fit into the world. And a lot of people think about self-awareness only about what I think and, and what I know about myself and. And being clear on my, my thoughts, but self-awareness is very much about understanding how the world sees you. So I've kind of likened this idea of self-awareness, both internal self-awareness and external self-awareness. As Tasha Yuri calls it to the mirror and the portrait. So the mirror is looking in that mirror, you know, it's, it's seeing. Your values, your passions, your aspirations, how you fit into the world, and. That is the idea of self-awareness that's out there. And sometimes you look in that mirror and you see yourself so clearly. Sometimes it's a fun house mirror and you don't really see yourself. You know, you're not seeing yourself so clearly. And then the portrait represents this external or public self-awareness. And this is about seeing how others see us and our impact on the world. And. It's about how our actions and our beliefs and our values impact other people. And you can see the portrait through feedback. That's one of the ways that you see the portrait that other people have painted of you. And sometimes that portrait is beautiful and you love what you see on the canvas, and sometimes it's really ugly. And you may not agree with the portrait that's been painted, but the fact that that portrait is out there can inform you on your impact on the world and on others, and it's really important to see that, to see that portrait. So even if the feedback that you're receiving, you don't agree with it. Somebody out there is thinking that. Mm-hmm. So you put that out. So what are you going to do to change that portrait for future people?

Becky Hamm: 22:26

Yeah. Well, and what's interesting about that metaphor is absolutely we put that out and then people perceive us through the lens of their own stories, their own history. And so in that portrait. Is you and what you are sharing with the world and how you show up in your energy and your words and how you make people feel, and all of that. Also the individuals who you are in relationship with or who interact with you, what they are bringing to the conversation too, right? Yeah. And so it, it gives you that really full perspective because maybe I've had a toxic boss, and so when I'm interacting with you and you say one thing that reminds me of something my toxic boss had said to me, and then I'm no longer looking at you, Alissa. I'm looking at you through the lens of toxicity and assuming that's gonna be there, right? And so that becomes part of your portrait, right? Not because of what have you sent out, but because of what I brought to the table. And so it gives us so much more of a fulsome perspective because once you know that I've had that toxic experience because you've been safe and I've shared that with you, then you have that and you know better how to communicate with me, right to. To put that story in the background. Yeah, I love that. That's a beautiful way of thinking about it.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 23:47

Yeah.

Becky Hamm: 23:48

And so Alissa, you have talked about the work you do with new leaders. You've talked about the team building work that you've done with groups. What are some of the other ways you help your clients at Workwise Labs?

Elissa Zylbershlag: 23:59

I also have one-on-one coaching available. And coaching is just, I mean, I tell everybody, it's like anybody who has been successful and we all have different ideas of success, but when you start to look at people who have been successful, they have had coaches. Yeah, coaching. I mean, you know, coaching just really helps you to think about slow, slow things down and think more deeply about the things that are ru you're ruminating on. I always say you pluck like one thing out and take that time to really look into it and. Anyone who's been successful has had either formal coaching or informal coaching, they've had, they've been allowed that space to really dig in and think about something more deeply. And so coaching is just a very important part of leadership and it is part of the next level leadership program as well, because everybody needs that one-on-one time where it's about you and your experience. So everyone in the next Level Leadership program also gets, uh, coaching sessions. As part of the program. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. I, I get coached too. I mean, anybody, I, I mean it's, and it's so incredibly valuable.

Becky Hamm: 25:16

Oh yeah, absolutely. Coaches have coaches, there's no question. Yeah. And I wanna toot Alissa's horn for just a second. For those of you who have maybe experienced coaching in the past, there is some, there is an approach to coaching where the coach is more of a, um. Advice giver where the coach is telling you what to do. So more of a consulting role than a true coaching role, and there's value in that. I'm not belittling coaches who coach way a hundred percent. Yeah. But the value of the coaching that Alissa provides is that she's not telling you what to do. She's holding space for you and asking questions so you can figure out what is best for you. It is a much deeper transformation and a much deeper, richer experience than having someone give you the answer. Is helping you figure out the answer that fits best in your life, because nobody knows you better than you know you. And so Alissa, I just wanna highlight that facet of your coaching because I think it's really important.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 26:14

Oh, thank you, Becky. You said it perfectly. And, and I like that that distinction between consulting and coaching. I think that's a very important distinction and both are important.

Becky Hamm: 26:24

Yeah.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 26:24

And helpful.

Becky Hamm: 26:25

Yeah. So Alissa, what is some practical advice that you can give listeners today to help them feel more confident in the workplace? You gave that one nugget that was phenomenal about receiving feedback. Is there others that you can offer?

Elissa Zylbershlag: 26:40

Yeah. So one, one really helpful, practical thing that you can do is. Be a forward facing thinker. So in the face of that feedback, in the face of seeing the portrait, or at any moment where you're having one of the, where you make a mistake or you're have disappointed or feeling stressed about something, instead of asking why, the question, why, which is a very past, you know, looking back question, ask what or how instead. Hmm. So for example, if I, if I'm like frustrated with my boss and my boss always talks down to me and I say like, why? Why is my boss always talking down to me? Right? That's thinking about the past. You can flip that to be much more self-aware and to be much more future focused thinking and say something like. What can I do to get my boss to respect me? How can I go into the next meeting and present myself in a clearer way? And you can kind of see the difference between those questions, right? Mm-hmm. Why is my boss always talking down to me? What can I do? To change this situation, and so that's a very practical tool when you find yourself asking yourself why questions, flip the script on yourself and ask what or how. Questions instead.

Becky Hamm: 28:19

Simple. That is great. Yes. Incredible. Incredibly valuable. Thank you.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 28:24

Yeah. Thanks. It, it really helps me.

Becky Hamm: 28:28

I'm filing that away for myself.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 28:30

Yeah.

Becky Hamm: 28:31

Yeah. So Alissa, I am a big fan of lifelong learning, having spent my entire adult life in the learning field. Uh, what is a book or a podcast that you would recommend to listeners? What are you loving right now that you want to share?

Elissa Zylbershlag: 28:46

One podcast that I'm loving lately is called Idea Cast by Harvard. You know, the Harvard Business Review? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I love that podcast. It's like these little 15, 20 minute bursts of information. Um, I love that podcast. From a work perspective, from a fun perspective, I am a long time listener of this American Life. I don't know if you know that one. It's amazing. Beautiful. Yes. And a a lesser known. A podcast that is just as good is called Heavyweight. I don't know if you've ever heard it. I don't

Becky Hamm: 29:21

know. This is new to me. Great.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 29:22

Oh my gosh, it's so good. It's this guy, Jonathan Goldstein. He is so funny. And the title is called Heavyweight because it's a, a whole podcast about people who walk through life with some like weight that they have, like some regret or something. And he helps you write, write that. Oh my goodness. Or write that regret or like make it happen. And it's just a really funny, it's poignant, it's smart. Um, and I love it.

Becky Hamm: 29:51

Oh, that sounds fantastic. Yes. I'm gonna check that out. Thank you.

Elissa Zylbershlag: 29:54

Okay.

Becky Hamm: 29:56

And so now Alissa, tell our listeners where they can find you. We'll have everything linked in the description box below, but if someone wants to learn more about Workwise Labs that they wanna connect with you, where are you out in the interwebs? Uh,

Elissa Zylbershlag: 30:09

the first easiest place is workwise labs.com and that has, um, all of my team building my next level leadership and the coaching information on the website and a contact form. So you can always go there. But I'm also, of course, I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. Uh, so you can always find me there too, either at Alissa Zylbershlag or Workwise Labs.

Becky Hamm: 30:34

Awesome. Well, Alissa, thank you so much for coming. Un joyfully, unstoppable. I think we could have talked for another 30 minutes. I try to keep these episodes short, but what that tells me is we've gotta have you back on. So, all right. Thank you so much. Your insights today I know have inspired and prepared listeners to lead with greater confidence and clarity. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Becky. Thank you so much. Now, if this episode spoke to you, I would love for you to share it with a friend who's running on empty. We need more women leading from alignment, not adrenaline. Don't forget to like and subscribe. Next week I'll be sharing my best tips to regulate your nervous system when you're stressed out the anxiety that we were talking about earlier today. Yep. This is a leadership podcast, but as we move into the holidays and all of the delightful sugar fueled days to come, you're not gonna wanna miss it. You can also grab one of our free resources, like the Mental Load Reset, or the Values Clarification exercise@womenleadwell.net and LinkedIn, the show notes below. Remember, joyful, sustainable, and authentic leadership is possible and you deserve to enjoy every minute of it. Until next time, I'm Becky Ham, and this is Joyfully Unstoppable.